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  1. #1
    Developer Fenuks's Avatar
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    [Unlimited] PvP class changes


    We are presenting new PvP changes and entering the open-test phase before a new Season begins.


    We are going to do changes per class and will adjust it based on the instant feedback given by players. You can also reply to the thread in the section from the class itself.

    Global changes:

    - All CC have a hard cap of 2 seconds
    - All resurrections have a hard cap of 4 seconds
    - Auto attack reduced by 30%

    Link to the class threads:

    Death Knight
    Druid
    Hunter
    Mage
    Paladin
    Priest
    Rogue
    Shaman
    Warlock
    Warrior

    Please do NOT request any changes within this thread, this is just for discussions related to the overall changes
    Last edited by Fenuks; 05-28-2018 at 03:15 PM.

  2. #2
    Heroes WoW Member dankman22's Avatar
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    Honestly, I have been looking through some of the changes done. It feels like many of these changes has been done by people who has no clue about PvP. I do agree with some of the changes, but a lot of them makes no sense at all. As i have mentioned in another thread, buffing and nerfing abilities in order to gain balance is a forever going process. At no point will any kind of balanced be achieved, if the foundation of the stat system is so messed up as it is now. It feels like you guys are trying to build a house, on top of a fragile fundament. In order to balance PvP, you will need to seek deeper into the roots, and start with stat balancing. What i see is a one of the main issues, is how stats are handled. Upon gear creation all stats has been scaled by x amount, instead of actually considering that some of the recieved values are recieved in percent, and NOT as a dmg, hp, int etc increase. So, i suggest doing the following:

    • Hit Rating: Make 5% hit rating the soft cap for 255, and scale the hit rating on the gear after this.
    • Crit Rating: Make crit rating percentages equal to the blizzlike crit rates for both melee and ranged.
    • Resilience: Make resilience same percentage as blizzlike realms, adjust a bit accordingly to how big the burst is vs health.
    • Armor Penetration: REMOVE armor penetration from PvP, and make the armor penetration on items propper, so you don't get 100% armor pen form 1 item.
    • Haste Rating: Make haste rating blizzlike, meaning remove haste tabard / shirt in PvP.
    • Intellect (Mana): Make Mana in PvP Blizzlike, aka you can actually go oom in PvP, this also includes fixing Mp5.
    • Defensive Ratings: Make dodge, block etc blizzlike, so agility for example doesn't give you shit tons of dodge.
    • Expertise: Make Expertise scale blizzlike, so you can't stack a lot of expertise to never dodge.
    • Armor: Make Armor blizzlike values, so people don't have insane amount of damage reduction


    After doing these changes, you can revert all the buffs / nerfs to abilities you have done, remove cast time on mage mana shield etc, and this way actually achieve balance. There will be a few talents that needs to be changed, because they benefit of intellect for example, but this is much easier, than going on forever and buffing and nerfing abilities, in order to achieve balance.

    Conclusion is that, you guys have a totally wrong approach to actually getting PvP balanced. Doing it the way you are doing it now, you will have to continue buffing and nerfing classes for ever, because you will simply never be able to achieve balance, when there has been taking no consideration about the stats.

  3. #3
    Heroes WoW Member friendlyguy's Avatar
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    i know u put effort into it but this is crazy, 2sec casttime on ccs is nearly twice as much as on retail during 3.3.5, and on heroes people have even more utilities to interrupt it.
    A castime between 1-1,5sec would be decent (1,25sec would be blizzlike which should be high enough) but whoever decided this might wanna watch a few pvp movies again
    Last edited by friendlyguy; 05-28-2018 at 09:43 PM.

  4. #4
    Heroes WoW Member demonicdodonik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dankman22 View Post

    • Hit Rating: Make 5% hit rating the soft cap for 255, and scale the hit rating on the gear after this.
    • Crit Rating: Make crit rating percentages equal to the blizzlike crit rates for both melee and ranged.
    • Resilience: Make resilience same percentage as blizzlike realms, adjust a bit accordingly to how big the burst is vs health.
    • Armor Penetration: REMOVE armor penetration from PvP, and make the armor penetration on items propper, so you don't get 100% armor pen form 1 item.
    • Haste Rating: Make haste rating blizzlike, meaning remove haste tabard / shirt in PvP.
    • Intellect (Mana): Make Mana in PvP Blizzlike, aka you can actually go oom in PvP, this also includes fixing Mp5.
    • Defensive Ratings: Make dodge, block etc blizzlike, so agility for example doesn't give you shit tons of dodge.
    • Expertise: Make Expertise scale blizzlike, so you can't stack a lot of expertise to never dodge.
    • Armor: Make Armor blizzlike values, so people don't have insane amount of damage reduction

    So all i read from you on the updates is "Make everything blizzlike", first of all you have to realise this is a FUN 255 PVE server, and you shouldn t expect blizzlike pvp here. After you take that into consideration you can think about the next thing wich is the removal of donor items overall in pvp is against servers interests. They don t want to discourage people from donating because donating is what keeps the server alive. I m actually even up for bringing pve donor weps back to melee's with same hits as pvp weps and extra stats. Why? coz people bought them and actually played alot of pve to level them up and desurve to use what ever settup they like in PVP same way currently casters can.
    When it comes to armor expertise crit, you can t expect that coz that would mean they remove PVE items overall, and if they just nerf pve items crit/armor then they fuck up PvE and that is the main reason server exists and is unacceptable. You want the roots of the server to change over a pvp rebalance when even the retail pvp system was never actually balanced, there were allways meta comps and classes, it s the same way here just a bit scaled up. That is why you should play more then 1 class and not wish to nerf all for the benefit of yours. Playing a few different classes will give you better overall knowledge of the game and the knowledge of their weaknesses and how to abuse them in PvP

  5. #5
    Heroes WoW Member Miraii's Avatar
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    Thankss you all for this update! A little change is nice
    These change are only effective in BG or even in duel?

  6. #6
    Heroes WoW Member Madfruity's Avatar
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    I want to give a gerneral Suggestion: Make every interrupting spell in PvP to 10 sec cooldown.

  7. #7
    Heroes WoW Member friendlyguy's Avatar
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    After playing a bit with these changes i have to say im disappointed.

    - It is obvious that the "testers" have 0 clue about pvp, 2sec on cc or several classchanges prove that
    - people who suggests changes here only have 1 interest : to make their own class op (best example deadlylord7 and Chasetildown - having so less clue about the game and still trying to be part of "balancing" is insulting)
    - the issue between donor and nondonor gear hasnt even touched
    - the issue between pve (especially ulduargear whoch is an insane gap) and pvp hasnt even touched
    - you still fall through the ground / walls while ccd.. How is decent pvp ever going to happen if you can randomly kill ppl with a single fear because they fall through the world and die
    - diminishing returns are still bugged for a few classes, im not supposed to be stunned like 6times before i get immune
    - s12/s13 required ratings are still too high considered how many people even play arena on this server
    - same staffmember have the same misbehaviour in pvp as before

    Overall people waited since the release of s13 for these changes and all they got are a few unconsidered classchanges. It took you nearly 1? Year to change a few numbers, how long will it take to care about the problems i listed above? 5years?

    It would be more fair from you to simply say you focus your server on PvE and PvP will stay a mess forever, so people dont expect changes, i honestly think this was your last chance to ever get a pvp community on this server.
    Maybe youre grown up enough to deal with this criticism rather than deleting it and banning me, but if thats your choice youre welcome.
    Last edited by friendlyguy; 05-29-2018 at 10:37 AM.

  8. #8
    Heroes WoW Member Judgementest's Avatar
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    just did one BG and already can tell that the so called "pvp changes" that took place did more harm than good. I am sorry but pvp is still dang broken because classes that were overpowered are still overpowered and strong awhile ones that aren't still and almost feels like the ones that aren't gotten even weaker than before. My advice is get people who understand classes and from retail and knows how they should be and what they feel cause looking at all numbers and percentage on skills are so low.

    Cast time on healing stills is 2seconds are yet I cast on my healing wave .969 still with full pvp but issue is that 10% increase to healing wave okay so enhance shamans in pvp gear heal for 89k when take damage that is 3-4x that. What logic is it to have low healing like that especially classes that fight in melee but on other hand understand that down side effect make ele/restro shamans heal stronger making them like before extremely hard to kill but yall need figure that out how make it work.

  9. #9
    Heroes WoW Member dankman22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonicdodonik View Post
    So all i read from you on the updates is "Make everything blizzlike", first of all you have to realise this is a FUN 255 PVE server, and you shouldn t expect blizzlike pvp here. After you take that into consideration you can think about the next thing wich is the removal of donor items overall in pvp is against servers interests. They don t want to discourage people from donating because donating is what keeps the server alive. I m actually even up for bringing pve donor weps back to melee's with same hits as pvp weps and extra stats. Why? coz people bought them and actually played alot of pve to level them up and desurve to use what ever settup they like in PVP same way currently casters can.
    When it comes to armor expertise crit, you can t expect that coz that would mean they remove PVE items overall, and if they just nerf pve items crit/armor then they fuck up PvE and that is the main reason server exists and is unacceptable. You want the roots of the server to change over a pvp rebalance when even the retail pvp system was never actually balanced, there were allways meta comps and classes, it s the same way here just a bit scaled up. That is why you should play more then 1 class and not wish to nerf all for the benefit of yours. Playing a few different classes will give you better overall knowledge of the game and the knowledge of their weaknesses and how to abuse them in PvP
    If all you can read from my post is "Make everything blizzlike", I am sorry, but I have to doubt the level of your IQ. You clearly do not have any clue how those stats work and what a percentage change means compared to a pure stat increase. While I do know that the server is a 255 realm and not a i80 Blizzlike realm, there are just certain things that should not be touched when it comes to how blizzard made it. The stats I specified has been been created to be dynamic no matter what Level your character are. This is the reason why you can't log into legion and see people having 150% crit rating, or 150% expertise (if this stat still existed). Blizzard knows that some values has to stay the same through out expansions if they decide to keep them within the game. So for example if you are level 80 100 crit rating gives you 3% crit, but if you are level 90, you will need 130 crit for the same amount of crit rating (3%). Only the amount required is increased, but gear will generally result in having the same amount of percentage increase, because of diminishing return from levels.

    My whole point is that, you can never balance something that is on a fragile fundament. Fair enough if you don't want balance, but then be honest about it. You can still make ultra fun PvP but increase damage and health output so that we have the same amount of health, and damage, and thus giving us the feel of 255. I know that one of the most important things about 255 servers, is having all talents, but atleast balancing the stats, would make this somewhat more balanced while keeping the talents, and perhaps disable certain combos.

    I see your concern about donation, and i get why a server like Heroes-wow wants donation as a part of this realm. I assume many of the devs and admins make their living out of the income from the server, which i am all for, as this contributes toward having more time to develop great content. But you do not need to make donors a whole other category in terms of how over powered they are, you can simply give them a few percentage increase, so that you still benefit in PvP from supporting the server, but not to an extend where you can take out the most skilled players who isn't donor, while your skills are garbage, simply because of the fact you got haste tabard, donor weps, and ulduar upgraded donor PvE pieces. I have donated a lot of money myself, and also abuse the fact that you benefit so great from Donor items, and i ONLY do pvp. But when we speak about balance, this is just a true fact, that having donor items in PvP unbalance PvP even more.

    So in conclusion, i simply wrote about balance, not about how i think PvP should be, or how Donor Items are a great addition or not. I simply stated that in order to achieve balance, the devs must look back at the roots of the problem, and not build ontop of the problem, in order to hide it. Now if Heroes-wow does not want balance, they should instead state that in a honest topic, saying we strive to simulate a good PvP experience, but taking into consideration that we will never be able to balance the PvP. So if you want unbalaned PvP you should play here. But as i understand it, the discourse is to balance PvP, and therefor i stand by my previous statement.

  10. #10
    Co-Head Developer Rob's Avatar
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    As much as I would like to make an extensive post, I sadly don't have the time at this very moment.

    So keeping it short..

    This is just a small stepping stone for pvp changes that are still to come, we needed to get these spell changes out to help with the testing and the improvement. Its no good us just testing and saying tuff its staying like that. The whole idea is that your suggestions are welcome!

    Fenuks made individual class threads specifically so you can reply with your concerns or suggestions for that particular class so that we can all work together to better the pvp environment as we know its not fair for new comers or those who can't afford to donate.

    Please stop whinging about the changes and actually post stuff that helps us to fix it.


    As for the timing of changes.... can I remind you that majority of us just do this for fun and as such lead normal lives just like yourselves.

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